Vengeance v Rupture

The hunt:

I can be a little slow. Having just been blown up by a Rupture, you might think that I would avoid Ruptures for a little while - at least until my skills improved. Apparently not.

I was cruising around the Molden Heath loop, looking for trouble. I found it in the form of a Rupture, who was either ratting or pretending to rat. I warped to zero to find out which it was.

It seems he was looking for a fight too, and he liked his chances. He moved into me before I had even landed, and pointed me immediately. He launched his drones and opened fire.

Turning my repair system on, I moved into a 500m orbit. I overheated my rockets and turned my attention to his drones, determined to be less clumsy than last time.

As I worked through his drones I kept an eye on my capacitor; seeing that it was largely stable I gathered that he did not have a neut. I also seemed to have gotten under his guns, despite the web. The only thing he could hit me with were the drones.

And they were now all dead.

After the initial rush of combat, things settled into a grim routine. Unable to hit me, I simply wore away at the Rupture's tank until he eventually exploded. I can only imagine the frustration the other pilot must have felt, lashing out at his enemy but unable to land a solid hit.

2011.06.05 15:53:00

Victim: Koskica
Corp: Ordo Drakonis
Alliance: Nulli Tertius
Faction: NONE
Destroyed: Rupture
System: Osvetur
Security: 0.2
Damage Taken: 5107

Involved parties:

Name: Taurean Eltanin (laid the final blow)
Security: -7.5
Corp: The Tuskers
Alliance: NONE
Faction: NONE
Ship: Vengeance
Weapon: Foxfire Rage Rocket
Damage Done: 5107

Destroyed items:

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Barrage M, Qty: 340
Damage Control II
Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain
Stasis Webifier II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Qty: 3
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I
Barrage M, Qty: 4200 (Cargo)
Republic Fleet EMP M, Qty: 3000 (Cargo)

Dropped items:

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Barrage M, Qty: 340
Gyrostabilizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer I
Warp Disruptor II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Warrior II (Drone Bay)

The pilot ejected right before the Rupture exploded. With my point still mid cycle on the Rupture, I was not even able to try and stop him. A useful trick.


Afterthoughts:

Combat is often a one sided affair. There is no trick and counter trick, the numbers simply add up in favour of one person and they win. Despite having been blown up by similar ships, I don't think I was in any real danger during this fight.

Indeed, after destroying his drones, it was rather like fighting a well tanked hauler. Granted, I could have done something stupid, like let my transversal drop, but the fight was mine to lose. So much comes down to how each ship is fit.

Interestingly, I see from the killmail that the Rupture had an mwd. However, he he made no attempt to kite me. I'm not sure how fast this particular fit is, but I suspect that it would have been worth it for him to try, if only to keep my transversal down until his cap ran out.

I also see that he did have a neut. Either he forgot to turn it on or a single small neut just does not make much difference to a cap rigged Vengeance.

Welcome to Flight of Dragons

Hello, and welcome to Flight of Dragons.

This blog started as a training journal, a way of recording my fights and analysing them so that I continue to improve as a pvper. It also helps me stay motivated, both because of the encouragement of others and because I can look back and see how far I have come. I hope to break the Battle Clinic top 10k one day, and (even more difficult) win the Tusker solo kill of the month competition. As of writing I am a long way from either of those goals, but this blog is helping me get there.

However, this blog also has a second (and originally unintended) function; it makes me part of the Eve community.

You don't need to be part of the community to play Eve, and playing Eve does not automatically make you part of the community. But I have come to find that the New Eden community - a real, player driven community, like the real, player driven economy - is part of what sets this mmorpg apart from all the rest. Being part of that community simply makes the game that much more enjoyable.

And so, long after my initial purpose has been satisfied, I continue to blog about my time in New Eden.

Of course, as this blog ages, there are an increasing number of old posts, and it can be difficult for new readers to catch up on where we are, and how we got here. This post, as well as serving as an introduction, is designed to speed that process up by summarising and linking key posts.


The Punisher Plan

It all started with the Punisher Plan. This was my effort to teach myself pvp by buying and losing 20 T1 frigates - in my case, Punishers.

The Punisher Plan is a record, then, of each of my first 20 pvp ships and the lessons I learned from losing them. If you are interested, feel free to read each battle report in turn - I especially recommend this if you are also new to pvp - but you can also read my 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarter reports to get an idea of how I progressed.


The T2 Tour

After the Punisher Plan, I knew I wanted to find a frigate to specialise in by maxing out the relevant skills. This would allow me to effectively close the gap between myself and more veteran players. You can't get better than maxed skills, after all.

So I started on the T2 Tour, a search to find the right frigate. I have not recorded every fight, for reasons I give here, but my entries should give those interested a pretty good idea about how the various ships perform. I started with the Crusader, because so many of the relevant skills matched those I had been building to fly the Punisher, and then moved on to the Malediction.

After enjoying, but not loving, interceptors I then moved on to the Vengeance. I fell in love with this little boat, and for months I flew it almost exclusively.


Building skills

With my ship chosen, I began working on my relevant skills and piloting my little Vengeance around low sec, looking for fights. In my six month review I noted that I had been having some problems with target selection, so I am worked hard to bring back the focus and the discipline of the Punisher Plan.

Over time, however I began to focus more and more on profitable piracy, and I felt the limitations of the Vengeance. Being very slow, I would often fall victim to gate camps or gangs that a faster ship would simply have avoided.

As a result, I started flying Interceptors more often, first the Malediction, and then the Crow. Now, my Assault Frigates and Interceptor related skills are effectively at maximum.


Moving up to Cruisers

Shortly after really maxing out my frigate skills, real life forced me to take a break. I'm back in the command chair now, but my flight time is more limited than it was before. To compensate, I've started trying to record my fights, so the blog now includes video, although this simply supplements the the written portion, rather than replaces it.

I'm now working my way through cruisers, starting with the Arbitrator. At some point I will probably branch out and include the Caracal and Maller, after they have been buffed in the winter expansion.


The Tuskers

I am also a member of the Tuskers; they are part of what inspired me to play Eve. Many of my fellow Tuskers have blogs of their own, and you can find most of them in my blog list. If you are not familiar with their blogs, I would encourage you to give them a read.

Like many Tuskers, I almost exclusively fly solo, occasionally teaming up with my corp-mates to take on larger targets. This is a rather demanding play style, and anyone considering it may want to read my views on the subject here.

Vengeance v Rupture

The hunt:

As with the Crusader and the Malediction, I was keen to put my Vengeance through it's paces and find out what it was made of. When I saw a Rupture ratting in a belt, I checked local for his reinforcements (he was in a local pvp corp) and jumped into the belt. He had called his ship "shieldruppie", which practically guaranteed that it was armor tanked. Still, I went with foxfire, just to be safe. If I got under his guns I could always change ammo later.

I landed right on top of him, and immediately established point. I also turned on my afterburner and moved into a 500m orbit to try and disrupt his tracking.

He turned on at least one neut, a webifier, and launched a wave of Warrior II drones. I started webbing and shooting his drones and he began trying to hit me with his main guns. I knew that the repper would not be much help, so my hope was to clear the drones and then keep under his guns while I wore him down.

I tried to keep up with all the different targets and all the info I was trying to process. It was a lot to take in, though, and I was sloppy. In trying to keep up with all the different targets I accidentally targeted him from time to time rather than his drones, which slowed the rate at which I cleared his Warrior IIs.

While I was able to keep my afterburner going, I was able to make him miss about half the time, and give him poor hits the other half. Once my afterburner dropped, however, he began to consistently land poor hits. I did not turn my afterburner back on, because I was hoping to get off a repper cycle; even with my incomplete skills, my cap regen is pretty good.

Somehow, though, I never managed to get off rep cycle, but I did clear several of his drones before I reached half armor. He recalled his remaining drones, and then relaunched them, along with the additional ones in his drone bay. I clumsily got back to work on clearing them.

I finally managed to clear the drones just as my armor gave out. I turned my attention to the Rupture, but his lowgrade hits were adding up, and fell into structure; I did not last long after that.

2011.06.05 08:47:00

Victim: Taurean Eltanin
Corp: The Tuskers
Alliance: NONE
Faction: NONE
Destroyed: Vengeance
System: Hrokkur
Security: 0.3
Damage Taken: 2645

Involved parties:

Name: Aeth Gemulus (laid the final blow)
Security: -10.0
Corp: The Hatchery
Alliance: NONE
Faction: NONE
Ship: Rupture
Weapon: Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Damage Done: 2645

Destroyed items:
Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 60
Rocket Launcher II, Qty: 2
Small Anti-Thermic Pump I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
1MN Afterburner IICaldari Navy Phalanx Rocket, Qty: 400 (Cargo)
Foxfire Javelin Rocket, Qty: 400 (Cargo)
Gremlin Rage Rocket, Qty: 688 (Cargo)Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket, Qty: 400 (Cargo)

Dropped items:
Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 60
Damage Control II
Rocket Launcher II, Qty: 2
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer IICaldari Navy Thorn Rocket, Qty: 400 (Cargo)Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 348 (Cargo)
Thorn Rage Rocket, Qty: 800 (Cargo)

I warped out, dropping an enthusiastic "gf" in local.


Afterthoughts:

I really wanted to know about this fight from the other side, so I convo'd the Rupture, who was happy to chat.

It turns out that he was using two small neuts (staggered) which is why I never got a rep cycle off. With only one, my cap regen probably would have pulled me through. Still, I should have reacted better when I saw I was not getting rep cycles off and reengaged my afterburners; it would have cut down on the damage I was taking from his guns. Apparently, with capless weapons and an armor buffer, a Rupture can maintain two small neuts indefinitely, so it's something I'm going to need to take into account when attacking cruisers.

I was very, very clumsy when it came to selecting and executing targets, and that is something that I HAVE to work on, but I suspect it will come with practice. I'm certain I could have cleared all his drones before half armor if I had been less of a mess and actually overheated my guns (I had been saving overheat for the Rupture).

However, targeting the Rupture, even accidentally, did provide me with some more food for thought. I tore through his shields without even trying, and even got about 15% into his armor. With more time, and better skills, the fight was very winnable.

And skills is the issue. With my current fit and all skills at V, my Vengeance is cap stable at 52% (even with only a T1 cap rig), has 9937 ehp, a cruising speed of 818 m/s and a dps of 92. With my skills, it has only 5.75 min of cap, 9165 ehp, a cruising speed of 762 m/s and a dps of 84. So, cap aside, I'm flying my Vengeance at only 92% capacity.

While I won't know until I try it, I suspect that it is very, very difficult to keep a top skilled, cap rigged Vengeance capped out. Assuming I learn from my mistakes and keep my afterburner on, my higher speed will make me even more difficult to hit, and increased dps clears drones faster and kills my opponent more swiftly.

So despite the loss, I'm actually quite encouraged by the whole thing. The Vengeance went up against a pvp fit cruiser and did nauseatingly well, despite my poor skills and atrocious mistakes.

I think I'm going to like Assault Ships.

Fitting a Vengeance

My last post generated a number of very interesting comments, so I thought I would elaborate on the thought process behind my fit, and why I chose it over some of the other excellent fits out there.


Active v Buffer

As Azual points out, the Vengeance is capable of an enormous passive tank. I have not done the EFT work myself, but I can believe 20k+ is possible; my active fit is over 10k.

However, a buffer means plates and armor rigs. The Vengeance is already a slow ship - a very slow ship - and slowing it down even further does not appeal to me. Equally, if I'm going to be kited then I would like to be able to endure the damage until they get bored or my backup arrives. A buffer tank cannot do that the way an active tank can.

If the Vengeance had sufficient range to eliminate the problem of kiting, then the reduced speed would not be much of a problem; it's already too slow to effectively give chase to anything. But because of the range limitations on rockets, I'm just not comfortable with a passive fit.


Single rep v Dual rep (or Web v Booster)

A single rep fit can afford to devote a midslot to ewar, whereas a dual rep fit needs a cap booster. For short, intense fights the dual rep fit is obviously superior. Whereas my single rep fit can tank the gate guns long enough to gank a cyno ship, the dual rep fit can kill the ship, get the pod and loot the wreck without even breaking a sweat.

This fit also overcomes one of a frigates biggest weaknesses: neuts. With a cap boosting fit the repper and point can be maintained for a significant period, which makes fighting large ships with neuts much more feasible. My single rep fit devotes one rig slot to a capacitor control circuit in part so that I can try and keep my modules (sans repper) running under a neut. That's rig slot that is not going towards my tank or dps.

However, as with the buffer fit, the dual rep fit is not as sustainable as the single rep fit, which is cap stable with reasonable skills. And while faster than the buffer fit, it's still slower than many of the ships you are likely to fight. Without a web, many of those ships will simply disengage when they realise that they can't break your tank.

And, for rocket ships, webs do more than simply keep the enemy around; they also improve your dps by reducing your target's speed. This effect is noticeable (albeit less significant) even against large ships, as I discovered first hand in my Rifter & Malediction v Drake fight. So although the dual rep fit gets an extra damage rig, it is losing some part of its potential dps to its target's increased speed.

Dual prop fits

One fit I have not experimented with is the dual prop fit. It would have all the disadvantages of the single rep fit (smaller active tank) and the dual rep fit (trouble keeping ships in point range, losing dps to target speed), and cap would be even more of an issue (because of the mwd).

However, it is also probably immune to kiting. Rockets can hit anything in scram range, and a mwd means that even if you cannot catch the ship kiting you, the chances are you are still fast enough to burn out of disruptor range with a few sharp turns.

Anti-thermic pump v other rigs

This is an issue that I've thought a lot about. Plugging the thermal resist hole is something that greatly improves the EFT tank on any type of Vengeance. In reality, though, many fights will not involve thermal damage, and in those fights the rig is wasted. Is it better to rig for something else, such as dps, which is useful in all fights? Assuming a non-armor rig, you would even see a slight speed boost.

Right now, I'm happy closing the resist hole, but I can see strong arguments for rigging something else as well.


Advanced modules

I completely agree that the Vengeance, and any other assault ship, is worth fitting out properly. Such robust base stats make assault ships fairly forgiving platforms, which is exactly what you want if you are going to spend several million on a single mod.

However, I'm not going to go down that road unless my skills are pretty close to maxed out. Deadspace mods get better with improved skills, and I'm not prepared to risk that kind of money on a single ship unless I know I can fly it to its full potential.

Vengeance v cyno ships (and station guns)

The fit:

4 Rocket Launcher II

Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Small Armor Repair System II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Small Anti-Thermal  Pump
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

This is my basic Vengeance fit. Without high Assault Ship skills I need the capacitor control circuit to keep the repper running for a goodly time, but I would be tempted to switch it for a damage rig if I decide to invest heavily in the Vengeance.


The hunt:

One of the first things I wanted to do was test the Vengeance's legendary tank. Granted, I only had Assault Ships III,  but I had heard very good things about what this ship was capable of.

As a frigate pilot, one of the most frustrating things about low sec is the way I am forced to ignore targets that are sitting within range of gate or station guns. Given enough time, I can try and bump them out of range, but this is a very tedious experience, and all that effort can be wasted if the afk pilot returns to his computer (or a larger hunter appears to steal the kill).

The Vengeance, I hoped, could overcome this little problem. I therefore decided, with some trepidation, to run a test attack on a cyno ship.

Essentially, I jumped in on a cyno frigate, immedately pointed them, and overheated my guns. While I was shooting at them, and getting shot at by the station guns, I overheated my repair system and aligned to a celestial. As soon as the cyno ship popped, I warped out.

Actually, this seemed to work very well. I didn't even dip into structure.


Afterthoughts:

I am very impressed by the Vengeance's tank. With maxed skills, I would be willing to try going for the pod as well as the ship, and also trying to grab the cyno beacon. With my skills, that's simply out of the question. Being able to pick up those cyno beacons, though, would be a nice little source of extra income.

The Vengeance also seems to be sitting in a size/tank sweet spot. I can get in, tank the gate guns, and get out before the carrier can even lock me. I wouldn't want to try the same thing in a cruiser.

Malediction: a review

The Malediction is an odd ship, and ill suited for it's intended role. Unlike other fleet interceptors, the Malediction cannot actually target out to the limit of it's point range, which means that part of it's role bonus is  wasted with a T2 warp disruptor.

Equally, it's chosen weapon system, rockets, can't reach further than 15km, or 20km if you are prepared to rig exclusively for range. This means that, alone of the fleet interceptors, it cannot actually engage the enemy at the limit of it's (already curtailed) point range.

It's also rather strange that a ship designed to fly beyond the range of enemy guns would get a tanking bonus.

However, all of that suits me just fine; I like to get up close and personal and the Malediction's bonuses make it a pretty good ship for that job. It's almost as if some designer misfiled the Crusader and the Malediction - each would have been better at the other's role.

Unlike the Crusader, the Malediction can pack a web, which means it retains it's relative speed advantage when webbed. The tradeoff is that the Malediction has a lower base speed than the Crusader, but it is still "fast enough."

With cap independent weapons, the Malediction can also support an active tank better than the Crusader, and has a utility high for a nos. While still fairly fragile - it is an interceptor, after all - it can be surprisingly resilient if you keep your speed and transversal up.

Of course, I can't talk about the Malediction without talking about rockets. The pro's and con's of missiles over turrets are well known, and I won't rehash them here. However, I really enjoyed using rockets for another reason; time management.

When I open fire with turrets I need to be constantly checking to make sure that slight changes in range or tracking have not begun to undermine my damage. Checking this requires me to look at my combat log for several entries; because there is a random factor attached to turret hits any one result could be misleading, so that "miss" might not mean you can't hit, just that you were unlucky with that shot. The opposite is also true, and your "hit" might have been a fluke that will not be repeated at this range and angular velocity.

So every time I want to check my dps I have to spend several seconds focusing on the combat log, seconds I am not spending looking at my armor, cap, modules or opponent. And my dps needs to be checked regularly in a highly mobile fight.

Not so with rockets. A quick glance at the most recent entry will confirm that I am in range and hitting for full damage. If I'm not hitting, I won't see an entry. Simple.

I value this timesaving feature of missiles far more highly than the ability to choose damage, and it makes up for all the shortcomings (carrying ammunition, high reload time, lower damage, etc) because it allows me to actually focus on flying my ship and reacting to my opponent.

The advantages of using rockets, combined with the natuaral qualities of the ship, make the Malediction a hull that I very much enjoy flying. It's not without issues - the damage is pretty anemic (granted, my skills are far from maxed out) and it folds very quickly if it cannot rely on speed/transversal - but I've had suspect they are issues I could learn to live with.

Without having tried assault ships I can't be certain that it's what I want to fly full time, but I certainly see it being my go-to ship whenever I want to fly an interceptor.

Malediction v Exequror

The hunt:

I was roaming around, looking for another fight, when I managed to find an Exequror at a belt. Warping in, I saw that he had (very sensibly) pulled the rats a long way from the warp-in point, so I was nowhere near him.

Unfortunately, he had pulled them too far. By warping to one of the wrecks, I was able to land on top of him, and establish a point. Falling into a tight orbit, I opened fire.

He launched drones, of course. Here, at last, was the drone test I was looking for.

My response was clumsy. I was not used to having so many targets to deal with, and I felt a little overwhelmed. Still, I started webbing and shooting at his drones and I was gratified to see that I could destroy them after a few volleys.

With the damage starting to add up, though, I turned on my nos and started pulsing the repper. If I could kill the drones before they got me, I would win. Otherwise, I would be destroyed; I was in no mood to retreat from this fight.

The damage was too much for my repair system to deal with completely, but it did slow the damage down. My opponent clearly realised that the survival of his drones would be the deciding factor, and he started to put serious effort into micromanaging them. When I targeted one he would recall it before it could be destroyed, and release it (or a fresh one) when I started on another drone.

In the end, my cap gave out. Without the repair system, his drones made short work of me, and I wished him a hearty "gf" as I warped my capsule out.

2011.05.30 14:37

Victim: Taurean Eltanin
Corp: The Tuskers
Alliance: None
Faction: NONE
Destroyed: Malediction
System: Aedald
Security: 0.3
Damage Taken: 3144

Involved parties:

Name: K'Roa T'Jal (laid the final blow)
Security: 0.61
Corp: Critical Mass Inc.
Alliance: None
Faction: NONE
Ship: Exequror
Weapon: Hobgoblin II
Damage Done: 3144
 
Destroyed items:

Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 25
Rocket Launcher II, Qty: 2
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Small Armor Repairer II
Gremlin Rage Rocket, Qty: 600 (Cargo)
Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket, Qty: 300 (Cargo)
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

Dropped items:

Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 50
E5 Prototype Energy Vampire
Rocket Launcher II
1MN Afterburner II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket, Qty: 300 (Cargo)
Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket, Qty: 300 (Cargo)
Thorn Rage Rocket, Qty: 600 (Cargo)
Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket, Qty: 300 (Cargo)


Afterthoughts:

I'm going to write a post specifically about rockets, so I won't say too much here. I was pleased that I was able to hit and destroy his drones, though, and if I actually had decent missile skills then the result might have been very different.

Of course, there is a very sensible argument here about not flying ships I'm not properly skilled in, and that's a good argument. However, the whole point of the T2 Tour is to give me an idea of which ship I want to become properly skilled in. This fight had let me see another side of the Malediction, and I now felt ready to move on to the next ship.